Be a Spark: Diversity without Division with Karith Foster
Overview of this Episode
In this episode of the Trust Your Voice podcast, host Sylvie Légère sat down with Karith Foster, CEO of INVERSITY Solutions and Founder of INVERSITY Foundation, to spark a new way to think, talk and act on diversity.
In this conversation, Sylvie and Karith discuss:
Defining Diversity
Engaging in conversation to learn people’s lens and experiences
Language on how to be thoughtful and compassionate
Connect with Karith:
FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/FosterKarith/
INSTAGRAM: https://instagram.com/karithfoster/
TWITTER: https://twitter.com/karithfoster
LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karithfoster
Know more about Inversity Solutions to help eliminate the division among us. Karith also authored a book, you can get yourself a copy here: “You Can Be Perfect or You Can Be Happy: How to Let Go, Worry Less, and Enjoy Life!”. And Karith’s also been a guest on the She Said She Said podcast, you can listen to it here: She Said She Said Podcast Episode 218 with Karith Foster where they talked using humor as a skill.
We hope you enjoy the episode! Tell us what you think by leaving a review on Apple podcasts. Stay tuned for more episodes and be sure to subscribe to the Trust Your Voice podcast on your favorite podcast player.
Episode Transcript
Sylvie Legere 0:02
Welcome to the trust your voice podcast. My name is Sylvie Legere and as a civically engaged entrepreneur, the co-founder of The Policy Circle and a mom, I've noticed that too often we underestimate our leadership potential, and we forget that we can be a catalyst. I believe that no matter where you are in life is meaningful conversations, like the one we will have today that ignited new ways to think about our purpose. You can be a spark for others, you just need to trust your voice, even if it's a little shaky. So let's start the show. Hi, Sylvie here. Today, we are sparking up a conversation with Karith Foster. I'm excited because Karith is a diversity inclusion and belonging expert and a creator of the groundbreaking in diversity methodology. And her work is fueling a major shift in diversity, leadership, and culture change in academic institution, organization, corporations across America. She's a speaker, humorist, author, and author of the best selling book, you can be perfect, or you can be happy. Karith is really a positive force of change. So I'm really excited about this conversation because we are going to get into the language, the tools and the courage that really it takes to engage in constructive conversations about diversity. So now let's get into it. And lightest part. Karith, welcome to the trust your voice podcast.
Karith Foster 1:27
Thank you so much for having me Sylvie, what a treat to join you.
Sylvie Legere 1:30
Thank you. Well, it's been a pleasure to get to know you at the Policy Circle Annual Summit. And also I listened to your wonderful podcast series on she said, she said, with Laura Cox Kaplan, I encourage everyone to listen to it because characters share on this so much about herself, or story or book. And what I'd like to do in this episode, is really focus about character work, your work on adversity, and the firm that you founded. So let's start with why adversity and what are you setting out to solve?
Karith Foster 2:07
Absolutely. So I didn't choose the diversity path, if you will. My background is former journalist, television producer on air personality. And the catalysts that kind of set me on this path was working with Don Imus after the very unfortunate, disparaging remarks that he made about the Rutgers women's basketball team, and being put on air to have a national conversation about racism and the term of race in America. And while I was beginning that journey, I was trying to make an assessment of why have we been doing work in the diversity realm for so long for decades now? And yet, there's still a need for it, but we haven't mitigated it. We haven't solved it. What's the missing piece? What is happening, what is being said, in schools, what is being said, in trainings at corporations and organizations? And the more I did my research, the more I delved into it, I realized that it was the approach, it wasn't the messaging that we should all get along, that we should be respectful. It was how we were going about it. And within Inversity, I even chose that word specifically. Because if you look at the word diversity, the root of it is DIV divide division. And isn't it ironic that we're calling this work that we're utilizing to try to bring people together diversity, and I was shocked that it's not working, when some of the methodology is siphoning people into categories, and into groups and into sub sects? And then we're amazed that oh, why aren't people coming together? Hmm. So within Inversity, the word and the concept, it's something acknowledgement, the celebrating the honoring of who we are our background, our heritage identity, what we bring to the table, but shifting the focus from what separates and divides us to what do we have in common? How can we be truly inclusive of one another, but most importantly, and powerfully? How can we be introspective, meaning understand your value and worth and connection to humanity so that you can then see it in someone else? So instead of working from the outside in, which is what a lot of DIB work does, this is about making an internal shift, so that we're making an assessment of what we can do better valuing ourselves so that we can take that outward. And that's where the real change happens.
Sylvie Legere 4:39
it's true that right now the conversation and all of the initiatives focus on what divides us what makes us different, instead of focusing actually, what we have in common, which is our humanity. Can you talk a little bit about the current models of di initiatives that are in place and are they making a difference? In the workplace or in organizations love to kind of hear what you are hearing and seeing from the organizations that you work with.
Karith Foster 5:09
Yeah, because a lot of the work that I'm doing when I go into an organization, it's corrective work. That's where people are coming from needing to correct, the DEA programming that's been ineffective, or they're wanting to protect their organization if they're new to the diversity and inclusion space from it taking a wrong turn. And if you look at multiple studies that are out there about how effective diversity and inclusion training is, you will find that a lot of it isn't working. And most of the studies are done by psychology organizations that actually, you know, I mean, some of the facts I can give you. Personal psychology is a publication that essentially said, two thirds of human resource staff have stated that diversity trainings and programs, they don't work, they don't have a positive effect, diversity trainings and statements have actually shown to increase stereotyping. And in a review of 985 studies on anti bias training, there has been no definitive evidence that actually reduces prejudice. This is the training that is the primary source of what companies and organizations are doing. And they're not doing it because they hate their people. They're not doing it, because they don't want to make a change. They're doing it because they haven't been introduced to another way. Another concept, which is what diversity is, because I am not at all denying the need for bias training, unconscious bias training. I think that that's imperative. But again, it has to do with the approach if you're setting people up to go into one of these trainings. And you immediately siphoned people into a group of victim or villain, you're setting yourself up for disaster because I don't know anyone who voluntarily wants to be put in to either of those categories. And unfortunately, the approach is, again, it's not intentional, I think most people who are in the DNI space, their hearts are in the right place. But they've never thought about why do I have to keep coming back year after year, this is an $8 billion a year business. Now I'm sure there's some people who are very happy to go back year after year to an organization because it's an evergreen business at this point in time.
Sylvie Legere 7:25
It's an industry, right? It's become an industry. And if we want to talk a little bit about Okay, is it successful or not? Let's talk about what should be the goals of a DI initiative in the workplace? How do we define those goals? And how do we measure against those goals? Because it's all about human interactions kind of difficult to say out? What are the goals to determine if the program is effective or not?
Karith Foster 7:51
Can I start with what the goal shouldn't be, the goal shouldn't be to have everybody be on the same page and agree, that's the antithesis of true diversity. Yet, that seems to be what many people are striving for. And that's, again, why we're setting ourselves up for failure, because we are coming from different backgrounds, different experiences, different lifestyles, and we will never be exactly on the same page. And that is okay, the goal should be coming into a place of mutual respect, of conscious communication, and of valuing one another, this idea that we have to agree on everything. And I think that's really the downfall of traditional DNI work, thinking that it's a two way street. And one of the lanes is again that there's going to be an agreement reached at the end. So everyone is exactly in the same place and has shares the same thoughts and ideas and beliefs. The other deficit within the diversity conversation is that diversity is only about people's ethnicity, or their gender slash sexuality. We need to redefine that diversity, we need to expand diversity to include diversity of thought diversity of ideas, and neuro diversity
Sylvie Legere 9:01
Right, we need to include neuro diversity is rarely part of the discussion. And it's just so important because we need to design workspaces, and jobs. So that includes people of all abilities. And it is shocking how it's not part of the conversation as much as it should be.
Karith Foster 9:23
It's an it, it seems. So what's obvious to me because I've been doing this for a while. But when other people hear that when people hear this conversation, they're gonna be like, oh, yeah, that's right. Like the epiphany start to happen. And hopefully they question why have we been doing it only this way for so long?
Sylvie Legere 9:41
But what is measurable are the goals to have kind of a benchmark survey, how comfortable people feel about being who they are, and are their clients. And then there's a before and after survey or how do you define the goals? If we set three goals of a diversity initiatives what would they be?
Karith Foster 10:01
I would say the three goals would be an assessment of company culture are people saying that they feel like they belong, they want to be there, they want to show up are people feeling like they are being included? Meaning, you know, they get to have a voice in the conversation. And I think if you measure this by the success of the company, the profitability, the turnover, people keep her isn't one of my favorite kind of go twos, because it gives so many wonderful insights and facts. And I was looking at a list recently of, you know, the top seven reasons why people quit. And within the top seven, three of them were for company culture, right. And the other one was disagreements with coworkers, or management. And the third that really struck a chord with me was that employees, they feel like they cannot give honest feedback, and that their thoughts aren't considered. That's part of creating an inclusive culture. When people feel like they can be their authentic selves, share their feelings, not feel that they're under the threat of being canceled. If that's where we are right now. Many people feel like they cannot share their thoughts or opinions for fear of retribution for fear of being told that they weren't being considerate. But then it's this damned if you do damned if you don't, if you don't say anything, they are complicit. So what are people supposed to do, so a lot of people shut down, they shut up, they put their heads down, they go to work, and they're miserable. And that will be reflected in the company's revenues, and the company culture and the employee morale. I think people think diversity is just as like one little category that is about again, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, it is so much more it's about learning and development is about figuring out how to communicate effectively, letting people feel seen, heard and valued. And that takes training that takes effort, it takes work, it's not an overnight scenario is a practice, it is a practice.
Sylvie Legere 11:50
And it's also I love this term of like, everybody having a sense of belonging to the company, because it will translate into just a higher performing organization and a place where people will want to come to work and be productive and give their best. So what would be the ideal structure and perhaps a roadmap of a diversity initiative.
Karith Foster 12:12
I think the ideal structure is for it to trickle from leadership down. leadership has to be committed to creating an inclusive culture, it can't be something that they just say, you know, what, I'm gonna hire chief diversity officer, they're in charge of this. And Ken thinking that it is, again, like its own separate entity. And I think again, that has to go back to how we have defined diversity in our minds that is just about these two aspects of who a person is. It should be inclusion of diversity of thought ideas, the considerations of people socio economic statuses, their backgrounds or nationalities, neurodiversity, all these other things. And when leadership is coming from that place, then they can offer the support to whomever they have bring in, whether it's a consultant like myself, it's someone they've hired to help formulate the culture. And once it becomes a practice, not just a one and done. No. And I think that's also been part of why di programming has failed, because people think, oh, let's just bring somebody in to give a talk was fire everybody, or we'll send everybody straight. And then insane. I just finished speaking with a client yesterday in Oklahoma, and it was recovery work, it had some dei come in, and it separated people, it caused more polarization and division after I finished thinking, people were coming up asking what's next, they were enrolled, they were inspired, they felt connected. That is how diversity programming should be. Not making people want to go home and sell flagellate not making people feel like they've been re victimized, again, not putting people who are the quote unquote, marginalized group on the spot to be the token representative.
Sylvie Legere 13:55
Want to take a moment to share a little bit about the policy circle, I co-founded the organization to equip women to lead effectively in their community. This is a nonprofit organization that gives you the tools to engage confidently in dialogues about public policy that impacts our lives. Our community, and our businesses, invite you to visit thepolicycircle.org to learn more, and join the conversation. Now let's get back to the episode. So do you recommend that programming that happens on a monthly basis or a quarterly basis? Or is it something that you recommend that teams do regularly as part of their all-hands meeting, for instance, with his programming look like?
Karith Foster 14:38
I think it should be incorporated into as much as possible. Because again, when we redefine diversity and think about it as learning to communicate in a healthy way with one another, that's a daily exercise. Now, yes, monthly, it's great to maybe have a focus on something or a training or meeting. But again, when you infuse it into the culture, it's not something that you are, are saying is separate from who we are, it becomes part of your daily interactions, right?
Sylvie Legere 15:10
Right, it becomes part of how you communicate. So it's really part of communication within, and really the ongoing development that people do as part of their work and being part of a team. So let's shift gears a little bit. And I'd love for you to touch on how should leaders of organization react to major events that are happening in the world that impact a specific group, whether it's visible minority, religious group, what should be the reaction and the path to come to a conclusion or a position walk us through a little bit.
Karith Foster 15:43
It's always challenging for a leader to share their personal thoughts and ideation sometimes, because not everybody's going to agree. But I think when a leader comes to the table and acknowledges a significant event that is very public, what they're doing is showing that a they're not ignoring it, they're not sweeping it under the rug, it's something that they want to give attention to. But I think giving people the opportunity to express themselves to share their thoughts on it. We might be going there in a minute, but I don't call them safe spaces, I get the idea of safe spaces, psychologically safe spaces. And I'm not saying people shouldn't feel comfortable enough to share, but I prefer the term brave spaces. And so leaders set up an opportunity for brief spaces for everyone to come in and have a voice in the conversation. Not everybody's going to see everything exactly the same way. Because if it's not part of your purview, you can't speak from that experience. But when you give other people the opportunity to share from that perspective, and opening that space up, that's what leadership is, Leadership isn't saying you all have to agree with me, we all have to be on the same page, it's saying this happened, we're going to address it, we're going to talk about it, we're going to acknowledge it, because I think people obviously they take signals from their leaders, if a leader says nothing about something, then oh, immediately the thought is going to be they don't care. They're not interested. And if it's something that personally affects them, if somebody if it's something that they feel connected to emotionally, they're going to immediately assume that the leader doesn't care about them. So we have to be brave enough to make statements and thoughtful statements. It doesn't have to be something that is this over reaching, opinionated, divisive point of view. It's about being thoughtful. It's about saying when this happened, whether it was a tragedy, whether it was something to do with an election, but doubling down on the fact that just because we may not all say the same way doesn't mean that we aren't going to recognize the people who've been impacted by it.
Sylvie Legere 17:55
So let's talk a little bit about those brave spaces and workplace conversations and communications. Give us some tools, perhaps a language that people can use to express their views in a way that is thoughtful and not inflammatory, and will not cause more division. What are the check marks that you need to have in your mind before you speak, and you state your position that you know people most might disagree with?
Karith Foster 18:26
It's very easy to come from a personal perspective and be on the defensive, or even the offensive, right? Because you so strongly believe, and your thoughts, your opinions, your viewpoints. But if you can come to the table, understanding that there may not be people who can see it your way, for whatever reason, we don't know what we don't know. So if you can come at it from the perspective of a teacher of someone who's illuminating the situation of someone who's giving insight you are more capable of using language that isn't inflammatory, but rather Invitational. So what you can say instead of you know, I'm angry because I did it, I did it. So you know what, it really upset me, when so and so happened was so damaging, but hurtful, like it really struck a chord with me when this happened, opening it up to making it personal for yourself. And this requires vulnerability. I think that that's where we lose the disconnect for empathy. Because if we can't be vulnerable, we can't be empathetic. And having these conversations does require some vulnerability on our parts, which allows other people to be vulnerable and make it personal. If it's not personal, it's not going to have an effect. You know, we talk a lot about neuroscience and the connection between the heart and the mind. And I think a lot of people don't know that the heart is more than just a muscle that pumps blood through our bodies. It's actually a little brain it has over 40,000 nerve receptors that think feel remember saying independently from the brain, and you can try to change somebody's mind all you want. But unless it's a very personal thing that touches them that reaches them in their heart, again, it's not going to make a significant impact. And that may sound we will we talked about, you know, empathy. We talked about vulnerability, we talked about grace. And those aren't words that often are used in corporate America, because it's about brass tacks, right. It's about the end results. It's about profits and retention. But if you're not going to treat human beings, as human beings and recognize the human aspect of how these conversations are going to go, then again, you're setting yourself up for failure.
Sylvie Legere 20:41
I think it leads also the question, you know, you talk about being vulnerable and creating these brave spaces. I think that it's also important for all of us to kind of create these spaces where we can engage in meaningful conversations, because that's how you learn the most about people. For example, I was part of a conversation around poverty, a roundtable discussion, and someone shared her personal experience with poverty and how she grew up in the project with a single mother and, and had a very hard childhood. But looking at her today, where she is a doctor, she is really achieved many successes, you would never make those assumptions. And I think this is where I feel so strongly about the policy circle conversations and equipping people with perhaps some facts to discuss and to react to where they can layer into also their own vulnerability, their experience, their priorities, that allows us to know each other better, and then to perhaps understand also where people are coming from when important situations happen. And also when they share their views instead of just jumping to conclusion, assuming the worst assumptions, wanting them canceled and fired, which is what we are seeing today.
Karith Foster 21:59
That's the beauty of the policy circle, I wish everyone could incorporate the tactics of the policy circle, into their communities into their work environments. Because you you've done a brilliant job of setting the stage for teaching people how to listen, you know, most of the time, we do not actively listen, we listen to react, we listen to share our two cents, we don't listen to absorb the information and meditate on it, and let it marinate. And so that's one of the key things that you all have done so successfully, that I wish so many more people, especially the people I work with, are able to do.
Sylvie Legere 22:33
Yeah, thank you. I mean, it is interesting, also how people's past experience really shaped who they are. Right. And I think you touch on that a little bit in your book, I read that we have to acknowledge that. And that's also part of acknowledging people and creating a sense of belonging is getting to know that people are not just a white canvas, they're multi dimensional, and they have past experience that they bring forward and shape who they are, right?
Karith Foster 22:58
Yeah, we're not monolith. But nor should we be limited by defining ourselves by our experiences, or by the qualities that we bring to the table. I think I'm writing an article right now about the difference between woke culture, and awakened culture. One of the things that I feel that woke culture does is it puts labels on people, and you cannot deter from that label. Because for many, if you do, you're considered a sellout or you are fraud to begin with. Awakened culture allows people to be fluid, and allows people to be gay and conservative. It allows people to not be just defined by one or two aspects of their personality of their belief system of their physicality.
Sylvie Legere 23:40
I look forward to reading this article. And I want to thank you so much for being on the show and being committed to really sparking these constructive conversations about what makes us humans really. And I'd love for you to share with us what you always keep in mind when you're sparking people to view differences in a positive way, like what's your Moto or your line that people can take away and use for themselves.
Karith Foster 24:08
So certainly one of my mottos is, if you can laugh at it, you can get through it. And I think that being able to retain our senses of humor, especially about the really challenging things. That's one of the best gifts we can give to ourselves. That doesn't mean making a mockery of something or a situation. But really what a lot of comedians do is they point out the absurdity of the things like racism and sexism and homophobia, because it is absurd. It is absurd that we think we're so different from one another when the reality is we are not love it.
Sylvie Legere 24:39
Keep a good sense of humor. So I encourage everyone to read your book, where you can be perfect or you can be happy and Kara, how can people be in touch with you and engage with you on your work on adversity?
Karith Foster 24:53
Absolutely. So my website is inversitysolutions.com. My email is karith@inversitysolutions.com And I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Twitter and Instagram at the handle at Karith foster K A R I T. H.
Sylvie Legere 25:11
Well, great. Thank you so much. And all of this information will be in the show notes. So thank you again character. It was such a great conversation. I look forward to doing more together and posting roundtable policy circle conversations together very soon right.
Karith Foster 25:28
Thank you for having me Sylvie.
Sylvie Legere 25:30
Thank you. Thank you for joining me Sylvie Legere on my trust your voice podcast. I hope that this episode brought you a new way to think about your voice, how to trust yourself and how to use your voice for good in your life and in your community. If you like this podcast, be sure to leave us a review in Apple podcasts. And subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player again.